Does God Make Mistakes? Answers to Biblical Questions Part Five
Posted: Sunday, April 03, 2011
by Teresa Ortiz
Freelance writer/Speaker
For those (I know there are many) who have not followed this series over the past year or so, some of what I say may sound a tad harsh. Please know, it is not my intent; however, sometimes my passion gets the best of me.
This series is a result of several questions posed by one of our SearchWarp authors, Phil Yaffe. We started off strangers with differing views - we are now friends. As far as our views, well not much closer than when we started. Nevertheless, we embarked on a wonderful conversation where we can freely share our thoughts, beliefs, and even frustrations in a manner that I hope serves as an example to this community. More than this, we have gained a better understanding of each other's reasoning toward faith, doubt, and sometimes flat out disbelief. Others have joined in our conversation and a few lives have been touched, and changed. For this reason, we feel compelled to continue this public conversation - actually, I tried to make it a private one, but Phil is the one who insisted I answer publicly. So blame Phil (Smiles.)
Now that you are somewhat up to speed, I'll do my best to respond to the latest comments and set of questions; Why did God create the universe for man? If God's message is so simple, why does mankind still oppress, suppress, fight and kill over the interpretations of the message? And lastly, did God have a second thought when He said, "It is not good for man to be alone." Does God make mistakes?
WHY DID GOD CREATE THE UNIVERSE FOR MAN - How is man supposed to relate to God
"If the universe was created for Man, then why is it so enormous and everything so far away... Can all this vastness really be necessary and useful for life on earth? Phil
In the book of Genesis we learn that God created the heavens and the earth. All that science has discovered, and that which our technology has yet to give us the ability to see, was designed and placed by God's hand. It's precise; if the sun were any further away, we would freeze, if it were any closer we would burn. Amazing. But I am the first to admit, I am not a science buff, so I will leave it at this and let the scientists handle the rest. From Genesis chapter 2 until the last page of Revelation, we learn that the Earth was created specifically for mankind, it is the only planet that can sustain life; and mankind for Earth. We are not taught anywhere in the Bible about man's relationship to the universe as a whole. Though it is our curiosity, it has no effect on how to survive on Earth. If it were so, God would have made this information known to us. On the other hand, it shows us his power and glory. It gives us something in which to be in awe and wonder, and it shows us how little we are in the grand scheme of things. And in realizing how little we are; we can also see how important we are to our Creator. By the leading of the Holy Spirit, the pages of the Bible are filled with God's intent, instruction, warning, and great love for mankind. It also shares the good, the bad, and the ugly of humanity and its relationship to God. We were created to have fellowship with Him and with each other. In short, the answer to part one of this question is: According to the Bible, (God's word), the universe was not created for Mankind. It is simply a vast picture of the beauty and mystical creative power of God - but the real mystery is why would an all-knowing, powerfully creative entity have the need to create man?
The short answer is, He didn't. It amazes me that Almighty God, wanted to create man. He wanted to have fellowship with us, but he also wanted us to have a choice in the matter. Knowing that giving humanity a choice (free will), would also give way to heartache and death, He still chose to create man with a free will instead of forcing us to have a relationship with him.
"When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have ordained, what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and you have crowned him with glory and honor. Psalm 8:3-5
IF GOD'S MESSAGE IS SO SIMPLE
"Secondly, you said that God's message to Man is simple. He has set two specific requirements for being received into heaven rather than being consigned to hell: 1) Recognition of Him, 2) Recognition of Jesus [as the Son of God - my insert] then why have hundreds of generations gone by with mankind still oppressing, suppressing, fighting, slaughtering each other over misinterpretations of the message. Anything that simple should be very easy to communicate, but it clearly hasn't been." Phil
The answer is that the message has been clearly given. Since the day in the Garden until today. The problem is that the message is not easily received. This goes back to free-will, which was discussed at length in part three - "God's perfectly permissive will." Nevertheless, here are few more passages of Scripture that deal with this directly. Starting with the words of Jesus:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. he who believes in Him is not condemned; but He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed." John 3:16-20
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because , although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man - and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen Romans 1:18-25
As I said, the message is clearly given, but because the heart of man is wicked, we do not easily receive this message. We don't want to believe that we are sinners, we want to believe that we are good. And we may be good, but when we weigh our good against God, we are not. Have you ever heard someone say they went to church and by the time they left, they felt worse about themselves instead of better? AH! This is a good church, it means the message was clear, God loves us, but we are sinners and we need his forgiveness. This leaves us squirming in our seats. This is the Holy Spirit speaking truth to our hearts. Instead of surrendering to it, we run from it. And we harden our hearts. We find another religion; one that doesn't prick our hearts with truth. What we don't realize is that we should respond and surrender our hearts to God. This is when why we were created becomes clear and we can begin our relationship. This is not to say that our hearts are always feeling bad when we have a relationship with God. It is contrary, once we seek His forgiveness, we feel a freedom and a peace that is indescribable. But because there is the enemy, the devil, he will do everything in his power to keep us from our Maker. God does not complicate the message, it is we humans. We pick and choose what we like and don't like, we mix a little bit of this and a little bit of that - until the truth is so convoluted, we simply give up and decide there is no truth - Jesus must be lying when He said He was the way , the truth and the life.
The Bible is the most loved and hated book - no other sacred book is as controversial or mocked - why is this? Perhaps because its message is the truth? It has been proven to be 100% percent accurate; historically and prophetically. It has survived throughout history and of all the more than 8,000 manuscripts, there is less than a 10% error rate. And these errors are not doctrinal. What other sacred book has stood up to this test in accuracy? In all 66 Books of the Bible there is not one contradiction in doctrine - though many claim this to be the case. Many of these same people think they are wise enough to understand every thought and teaching of the Bible in one reading. ( One must know and remember that there is a three-fold message of the Bible - but this is another issue.) Still, with all the overwhelming evidence, some people choose to reject the message. This is our choice. And God is not to be blamed for our rejection of the truth. The Bible is also filled with instruction on how to discern the truth from a lie. The Holy Spirit, through all 40 writers, warned us and told us what to watch for - and He made every provision possible. Without taking away our free-will.
God does care about the state of man. It grieves His heart when we turn away and follow our own ways - ways that especially lead to the pain and even death of others and us. SO why doesn't He stop the madness? Because if God should take away bad, then He should take away good. (This would effect free-will.) The good we do in our faith in God through Jesus Christ-the bad is forgiven through repentance, and the good and bad we do apart from Christ will be judged. Nothing goes unseen and unremembered by Him.
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice [Jesus] and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with then, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.' And He said to me, 'It is done!' I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake, which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:1-8
If God were to cut this time of suffering on Earth short, before that last person whom He knows will not reject Him can receive Him, then He would be an unjust God. He is waiting for that last person - perhaps it is you?
DOES GOD MAKE MISTAKES
"A small but interesting point. God created all the animals on Earth and gave them the injunction 'Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.' So apparently it was His intention from the beginning that his creatures should reproduce. Except for Adam, who had no possibility of reproducing until "The LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help mate for him". Does this mean that God made a mistake in creation by not originally creating a sexual partner for Adam. Can God make mistakes? Phil
This actually is a big point and one that has a big purpose.
Man was the only creation of God to have fellowship with Him. Man is the only one who was created to be conformed into the image of His Son. (Only Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. Everyone after them bore the likeness of Adam - 1 Corinthians 15:49. Read all of chapter 15 for complete context.)
In this, God wanted man to understand his need for fellowship. Not only with God, but with others. At first, Adam had the luxury of communicating with God daily. They would hang out in the Garden together. Once Adam understood the privilege of communing with God, God told him it was not good for man to be alone. Perhaps he heard Adam's heart cry, but the point God made in giving Adam this information was so that he would remember it. Nobody likes to be alone. First and foremost we were created for fellowship with God - He put eternity in our hearts. He gave us a desire and need for love. Why do you think we want to try and live forever, always wanting to stay young and in love?
God does not make mistakes. Everything He does and does not do has its purpose.
And always dear friend - All that really matters is the bottom line. God speaks to our hearts. We know we are guilty of imperfection and sin. We need a redeemer. Will we reach out to God's hand of love through Jesus, or will we reason away His voice?
Thank you to all for reading through the end. This is not an easy subject to keep short. And thank you Phil, for being patient in waiting so long for my reply. I'm sure this raises another host of questions.
Blessings to you!
Teresa
Part four
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Top-level comments on this article: (5 total)Insightful, powerful and intriguingly written. Lord Jesus, our prayer would be that many would have ears to hear and eyes to see - the time is short and we know it is not your will for any to perish - all they need to do is chose with their will to ask forgiveness and make your Son their Lord and Savior! AMENHi MJ. Thank you for the encouraging words. This was prayed over for sure, and still I know it falls short. But I agree with your prayer and know that the Holy Spirit will have His way with whom He wills. Blessings to you! T
There you have it. I think you answered all his questions. I don't think you missed one. God bless.Hi Jesus. Thank you for reading and taking time to comment. Feel free to add any additional information. God bless you too!
It's very important to me to remember that there are no mistakes, that everything has a purpose. I don't know how people survive if they don't believe that. Thanks, Teresa!Hi Jennifer! Thank you for reading and for your comment. I agree. And I had to remember this yesterday, when we awoke to robbers in my husband's work trailer - that is our lively hood. Yesterday was filled with hits and near misses of great kinds. I will be writing about them later today. Blessings to you!
April 9, 2011
Dear Teresa,
Thanks for your copious reply to my questions. I very much appreciate your effort, but I am not very satisfied by your answers. Perhaps I didn’t phrase the questions properly. I hope this response does a better job. Let me deal with several of your comments as clearly and pointedly as I can.
In the book of Genesis we learn that God created the heavens and the earth. All that science has discovered, and that which our technology has yet to give us the ability to see, was designed and placed by God's hand.
As I believe I have said on several occasions (if not, here it is), I believe that something created the universe, and if you want to call this something God, I have no objections.
It's precise; if the sun were any further away, we would freeze, if it were any closer we would burn. Amazing. But I am the first to admit, I am not a science buff, so I will leave it at this and let the scientists handle the rest.
I think this is unjustifiable reasoning. You seem to be saying that everything is the way it is because if it weren’t, man could not exist. This does not stand up to analysis for two reasons.
First, if God created the universe for Man to live in, He could have created Man to survive under any conditions He wanted, in fact under all conditions. He did not need to make a creature so frail that He had to put the Earth at a precise distance from the Sun, otherwise there would be no life. Apparently He chose to do so for reasons that are anything but clear.
Second, by exactly the same argument you could say that the Earth was created for the benefit of virtually all other living creature, because if the Earth were any closer or any farther away from the Sun, they too would either burn or freeze.
From Genesis chapter 2 until the last page of Revelation, we learn that the Earth was created specifically for mankind, it is the only planet that can sustain life.
The idea that the Earth is the only planet that can sustain life is an unjustified assumption. We are currently in an era when astronomers are almost daily discovering new planets, some of which may be able to sustain life as we know it here. Or maybe some other forms of life that we yet know nothing about.
Assuming that there is no life on other planets, then what purpose do they serve? For that matter, what purpose is served by the hundreds of billions of stars that have already been counted in the universe, many of which are likely to have planets as well? As I said in a previous correspondence, compared to the universe, the Earth is like a single grain of sand in the Sahara. Isn’t somewhat farfetched for people to believe that thousands of square miles of desert were created for the benefit of a single grain?
Given the following comment, you apparently are not one of these people.
From Genesis chapter 2 until the last page of Revelation, we learn that the Earth was created specifically for mankind . . . In short, the answer to part one of this question is: According to the Bible, (God's word), the universe was not created for Mankind. It is simply a vast picture of the beauty and mystical creative power of God,
Is this a contradiction? First the Bible says that the Earth was created specifically for Man, then we are told that it wasn’t.
There is also a problem with the idea that it is simply a vast picture of the beauty and mystical creative power of God. Throughout hundreds of generations, Man has been unaware of the vastness and complexity of the universe. It is really only within the past couple of centuries that this picture has begun to emerge. Moreover, the picture is known only to the educated, while the vast majority of mankind is uneducated and probably still totally ignorant of the universe. Many such people still believe that the Sun moves around the Earth, because they see it do so every day. The idea even of the solar system, our grain of sand in the Sahara, is completely unknown to them.
Concerning the origin of Man, you say:
But the real mystery is why would an all-knowing, powerfully creative entity have the need to create man? The short answer is, He didn't. It amazes me that Almighty God, wanted to create man.
Correct me if I am wrong (I sincerely hope I am), but what seems to come through from this comment is that the purpose of Man is to glorify God. This is truly a mind-boggling idea. Can it really be that God, the end-all and be-all of everything, felt it necessary to create creatures for the sole purpose of telling Him how wonderful He is? Any god I am prepared to believe in would not be so vain and self-prepossessed. This sounds anything but divine.
Then to ensure that we truly do admire Him (He wouldn’t want sycophants), He creates heaven and hell, and gives man the “choice" of which one will be his eternal destiny. This brings us to the paradox of free will. You say that God’s message to Man “has been clearly given. Since the day in the Garden until today. The problem is that the message is not easily received . . . because the heart of man is wicked."
Really? This seems highly unlikely. If someone defies God, thereby putting him on the road to eternal damnation, there would seem to be only two plausible explanations:
1.He truly does not believe that he is defying God, in which case his condemnation is for ignorance, not arrogance or sin.
2.He is not in his right mind, in which case his condemnation is for mental incompetence, which also is not arrogance or sin.
Let me put this is more practical terms. Suppose you are told in no uncertain terms that a piece of pie is laced with arsenic and if you eat it you will die a cruel, painful death. Who would be arrogant enough to eat it anyhow to prove that the rules don’t apply to them? Certainly not I, nor anyone else who could be considered to be in his right mind.
Yet the notion (the gift) of free will asserts that we have a choice about incurring eternal damnation. We don’t. Given the unimaginably dire consequences of defying God (death is just the beginning), to do so can only mean that you don’t believe you are defying God or you are non compos mentis.
What other option is there?
Finally, I am flummoxed by your discussion of Adam and Eve. You say:
At first, Adam had the luxury of communicating with God daily. They would hang out in the Garden together. Once Adam understood the privilege of communing with God, God told him it was not good for man to be alone.
But Adam wasn’t alone. He was in daily communion with God. Could anything surpass that? And isn’t this objective of trying to get to heaven?
Perhaps he heard Adam's heart cry, but the point God made in giving Adam this information was so that he would remember it. Nobody likes to be alone. First and foremost we were created for fellowship with God - He put eternity in our hearts. He gave us a desire and need for love. Why do you think we want to try and live forever, always wanting to stay young and in love?
Do we want to try and live forever? If your objective is to ascend to heaven, then living forever would be the antithesis of what you want. I know devout Christians who look forward to the day of their death because life in heaven certainly must be better than anything we could possibly know on Earth. I am confused.
Teresa, once again thanks for your copious answers to my question. I appreciate the time and effort you are expending on my behalf. But as you say, “We started off strangers with differing views - we are now friends. As far as our views, well not much closer than when we started." This still the case, and I think unlikely to change. But it certainly has been an interesting journey, and I sincerely hope it continues.
Your friend,
Phil
Hi Phil. Thanks again for the kind reply. I knew I could count on it :-) I don't think I made myself clear in some areas, I will print this out and get back to you. Our conversation will continue as long as you want it to. As I said before, though you may not be benefiting from it, the way I hope, others have. I received emails from some who have doubted who say they have been challenged to give God a chance. They have realized that it is God who gave them a conscience to know right and wrong. By answering God's call and challenge "to taste and see that the Lord is good", they have come to know peace and things that they once couldn't understand in and about the Bible are coming together for them. And like I said in our earliest conversation, this is all worth it for so many reasons. Blessings to you dear friend.May 28, 2011
Dear Teresa,
On April 3 you said:
But the real mystery is why would an all-knowing, powerfully creative entity have the need to create man? The short answer is, He didn't. It amazes me that Almighty God, wanted to create man.
On April 9, my reply was:
Correct me if I am wrong (I sincerely hope I am), but what seems to come through from this comment is that the purpose of Man is to glorify God. This is truly a mind-boggling idea. Can it really be that God, the end-all and be-all of everything, felt it necessary to create creatures for the sole purpose of telling Him how wonderful He is?
While surfing the Web, I came across the following commentary on the purpose of creation.
If we look to Adam before Eve was created we read, The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." (GE 2:18). So a helper for what? God gave Adam and Eve stuff to do. God gave them a calling. Adam and Eve were supposed to help each other fulfill their calling. That’s what ultimately marriage is about helping each other fulfill their God given calling.
So what was their calling? God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it (GE 1:28). This is not just pro-creation. Adam and Eve were created to worship and serve God; this was their calling. So on the earth existed two worshipers of God. God wanted the entire earth filled with worshippers of God.
So marriage was designed to:
1. Help each other fulfill their callings of worshipping and serving God and
2. Making and raising new worshippers of God; thus filling the earth with worshippers of God.
This commentary confirms exactly what I feared, because on April 9 I also said that any god I would be prepared to believe in would not be so vain and self-prepossessed. I am very eager to know your understanding of the purpose of creation. Do you agree with this commentary or do you have a different perspective on the subject?
When might we (I and everyone else who value you thoughts) look forward to you next posting?
Your friend,
Phil
Hi Phil,
Thanks for bringing this back to mind. I reread all of your comments. and again, appreciate our friendship.
I think you may have misunderstood what I said, I did not intend to contradict myself. I said Earth was made for man, but not specifically the whole universe, which was your question. The Bible does not tell us the universe was made for man, but it does say the Earth was, so no contradiction. Maybe it will all play a part some day, maybe not. But this is an irrelevant issue in the grand scheme of what we are talking about.
My point in sharing about the positioning of the sun and Earth is is to share about God's order and that nothing is by accident or coincidence in terms of Creation. Science is not my subject, I would highly suggest going to Answers in Genesis dot com or The Creation Research Institute dot com to answer your biblical questions on science and the biblical creation. It is not my area of expertise, and frankly, I have not much interest. My faith is not based on that stuff, though I realize it is a stumbling block for many, so I refer them to those who can better assist on the subject. Another great person to read would be Chuck Missler.
Anyway, regarding your comment about the pie being laced with arsenic warning. You would not eat. This is exactly what the Bible is - it is telling us point blankly that we are sinners and the only way to restore ourselves to God is through faith in his son. I am not sure why you have a hard time accepting this is direct warning, but you have no problem with the pie illustration. Did you see the poison put into the pie?
The very fact the you have done a thing or two wrong in your life and have felt guilty about it is evidence that you have a conscience. What you choose to do with that is your choice. Some people do not do anything about those guilt feelings and continue to sin more and more until their hearts are so hard, they don't feel the guilt any longer. That is what Romans talks about. Like I mentioned early on, God did not create robots.
Regarding this commentary you shared. I am not sure where that came from, but I don't agree completely.
True I believe that God is to be worshiped, but I believe his nature commands it, not demands it. (Though he does teach not to worship false and non-existent Gods - it angers him because he knows his people are led astray by it and these so-called god's cannot do anything for the people.) And also, I don't believe that we were created for the sole purpose of worshiping God. The Bible makes it clear we have many purposes. We were given brains, personalities, likes and dislikes, we have order. I think what we have on Earth is a glimpse of God's full purpose for us in eternity. We are taught of the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth when things will be restored to what it should have been before sin. This means we will be living, learning, and enjoying, just like today, but sin and evil will not rule like it does today. Jesus said he gave us life that we would have it abundantly. I cannot answer fully what it will be like when we are with God in the New Jerusalem, but from the inkling we get in Revelation and throughout the Bible, I know it is going to revolve around much more than laying prostrate on the ground 24 hours a day, though I do believe that is a big part of it, but like I said out of gratitude. Not like some big God in the sky who rings the bell when its time to stop, drop and worship. I don't mean to take away from the importance of worship, but I just don't think the Bible teaches that's all were were created for.
I think if you seriously walked though the Bible with the open thought that it might be true, and look for all the connections between the old and new testament, you might see how many millions of people have come to believe it as truth. Even if you don't accept it yourself. At least you would have a better understanding. Once again, I invite you to follow the book of John bible study, read along and look at all the correlating passages of Scripture that bring to light the evidence I have tried to share with you. The words in Scripture could speak more graciously and thoroughly than I ever could or will.
As always, Phil, God knows each of our hearts and knows if we are being stubborn to what he is speaking of if we are completely mentally unable to comprehend right and wrong. He will be the judge. But I believe with all of your inquiries and studies over the years, you are quite capable of understanding sin. Maybe we will never come to an agreement on truth - but I certainly appreciate this whole privilege of being a part of this amazing discussion. And I can see it all being recorded in the books in heaven. Blessings to you dear friend :-)
Dear Teresa,
Out dialogue continues, and happily so. I think the best way to reply to your posting of May 30 so that other readers who might be following the discussion is to copy the posting and to insert my responses where appropriate. So here goes.
Your friend,
Phil
Posting: May 30, 2011, with responses by PY
Hi Phil,
Thanks for bringing this back to mind. I reread all of your comments. and again, appreciate our friendship.
I think you may have misunderstood what I said, I did not intend to contradict myself. I said Earth was made for man, but not specifically the whole universe, which was your question. The Bible does not tell us the universe was made for man, but it does say the Earth was, so no contradiction. Maybe it will all play a part some day, maybe not. But this is an irrelevant issue in the grand scheme of what we are talking about.
My point in sharing about the positioning of the sun and Earth is to share about God's order and that nothing is by accident or coincidence in terms of Creation. Science is not my subject, I would highly suggest going to Answers in Genesis dot com or The Creation Research Institute dot com to answer your biblical questions on science and the biblical creation. It is not my area of expertise, and frankly, I have not much interest. My faith is not based on that stuff, though I realize it is a stumbling block for many, so I refer them to those who can better assist on the subject. Another great person to read would be Chuck Missler.
……………………………….
PY: Let’s start with something we can agree on. I have no quarrel with the idea that the universe has order. I am a mathematician and a physicist. If I didn’t believe in order in the universe, I would be something else. Whether or not that order demonstrates the existence of a god (or gods, as some religions prefer) is a different matter.
……………………………….
Anyway, regarding your comment about the pie being laced with arsenic warning. You would not eat. This is exactly what the Bible is - it is telling us point blankly that we are sinners and the only way to restore ourselves to God is through faith in his son. I am not sure why you have a hard time accepting this is direct warning, but you have no problem with the pie illustration. Did you see the poison put into the pie?
……………………………….
PY: Of course, the Bible is a warning, as are the holy scriptures of many other religions. But my question concerned free will. You seem to be saying that even if people know and understand God’s message for certain (not just a warning), many still defy it “because the heart of man is wicked." This is where I have a problem, which is the source of the pie analogy. If I am only warned that the pie is laced with arsenic, then I may or may not believe it. If I believe the warning (I have no doubts that it is poisoned), I certainly would not eat it. If I don’t believe it, I may or may not eat it depending on the degree of my doubt.
To put it in biblical terms, if someone defies God, thereby putting him on the road to eternal damnation, I see only two plausible explanations:
1.He truly does not believe that he is defying God, in which case his condemnation would be for ignorance, not arrogance or sin.
2.He is not in his right mind, in which case his condemnation would be for mental incompetence, which also is not arrogance or sin.
Are there any other possibilities?
……………………………….
The very fact the you have done a thing or two wrong in your life and have felt guilty about it is evidence that you have a conscience. What you choose to do with that is your choice. Some people do not do anything about those guilt feelings and continue to sin more and more until their hearts are so hard, they don't feel the guilt any longer. That is what Romans talks about. Like I mentioned early on, God did not create robots.
……………………………….
PY: If people knowingly sin, knowing what the consequences will be, I agree that God did not create robots. But it would seem that He did create lunatics.
……………………………….
Regarding this commentary you shared. I am not sure where that came from, but I don't agree completely.
True I believe that God is to be worshiped, but I believe his nature commands it, not demands it. (Though he does teach not to worship false and non-existent Gods - it angers him because he knows his people are led astray by it and these so-called god's cannot do anything for the people.) And also, I don't believe that we were created for the sole purpose of worshiping God. The Bible makes it clear we have many purposes.
……………………………….
PY: What are these purposes? Can you cite the biblical verses that specify them?
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We were given brains, personalities, likes and dislikes, we have order. I think what we have on Earth is a glimpse of God's full purpose for us in eternity. We are taught of the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth when things will be restored to what it should have been before sin. This means we will be living, learning, and enjoying, just like today, but sin and evil will not rule like it does today. Jesus said he gave us life that we would have it abundantly. I cannot answer fully what it will be like when we are with God in the New Jerusalem, but from the inkling we get in Revelation and throughout the Bible, I know it is going to revolve around much more than laying prostrate on the ground 24 hours a day, though I do believe that is a big part of it, but like I said out of gratitude. Not like some big God in the sky who rings the bell when its time to stop, drop and worship. I don't mean to take away from the importance of worship, but I just don't think the Bible teaches that's all we were created for.
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PY: What does the Bible teach that we were created for? And is eternal damnation a just punishment for failing to fulfill these purposes?
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I think if you seriously walked though the Bible with the open thought that it might be true, and look for all the connections between the old and new testament, you might see how many millions of people have come to believe it as truth. Even if you don't accept it yourself. At least you would have a better understanding. Once again, I invite you to follow the book of John bible study, read along and look at all the correlating passages of Scripture that bring to light the evidence I have tried to share with you. The words in Scripture could speak more graciously and thoroughly than I ever could or will.
As always, Phil, God knows each of our hearts and knows if we are being stubborn to what he is speaking of if we are completely mentally unable to comprehend right and wrong. He will be the judge. But I believe with all of your inquiries and studies over the years, you are quite capable of understanding sin.
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PY: To be able to understand sin, one must first believe that there is a God who has defined sin and its consequences. This is where the problem lies. I am still an unbeliever because there are so many religions that compete for this role. Since I don’t know which one to choose, I choose none of them. This doesn’t mean that I have no moral code. I live by the only moral code that doubt makes tenable: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. For me, the only credible definition of sin would be violation of this clear, unequivocal precept.
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Maybe we will never come to an agreement on truth - but I certainly appreciate this whole privilege of being a part of this amazing discussion. And I can see it all being recorded in the books in heaven. Blessings to you dear friend :-)
God must have perfected His plan on other planets more successfully in spirituality than He has on Earth; did He err?Mosquitoes, Nazis, alligators, fleas and ticks surely stand out as certain errors.Formal religion was another sure error;the Church's premise that God visited this one planet amidst trillions of other planets just to become a man to be killed and to save us from our sins, is worse than silly and asinine and has surely proven historically worse than a most dangerous idea.The clear evidence of Jesus' non resurrection from death is within the gospel, itself.When Jesus insisted to his disciples that He was indeed still alive, He offered them proof of His physical survival by asking them to place their fingers into the holes drilled into his hands; these were physical human hands, not spiritual ghostly hands.He then sat and ate and drank with them in celebration; ghosts, however holy, do not eat or drink; eating is done by people who are alive; drinking is also done by the living.Surely, if Jesus returned, the LAST thing he'd want to see would be a cross.Yes, religion was an error but certainly NOT the Christ.Paul again. You say you have the light, but each of your comments and articles that write regarding those who faith is rooted in Biblical Christianity are filled with ridicule and a mean spirit. My heart breaks for you and you are in my prayers.
You don't have to agree - you obviously have formed your beliefs and opinions on different set of books and experiences. So afford others the same courtesy.
As Jesus said, be careful to know that the light in you is not actually darkness.
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