Acts of God, Cause or Effect, and What it Means to You
Posted: Sunday, March 21, 2010
by Teresa Ortiz
Freelance writer/Speaker
Within the past few months there has been a devastating earthquake in Haiti - one which rocked the entire world - another hard-hitting quake in Chili, one off the coast of Japan, and... well, you get the idea here, this is not new information.
Although, what you might not know is that last week, many of us Southern Californians woke to a thunderous roar followed by a roll underneath us, ending with a jolt. My husband and I sat up waiting to see if it would increase - weird, I know - and when it didn't, our first words were, I wonder if we are at the tail end of a bigger one somewhere else. Fortunately, it was a small quake - only 4. something - sad that I can't recall exactly.
This piece is written specifically for someone I have come to love and respect as a friend and fellow writer on Searchwarp. I do, however, hope it will serve to shed some light on this situation from a biblical perspective; that is, my perspective of the biblical explanation for many others as well.
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"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now." Romans 8:18-22
In context, Paul is speaking to the Romans about sin, repentance, and life in the spirit of God as a Christian vs, carnal living and the religion of self. He explains that in the beginning all of creation was designed to live forever - just as man. God created all things in unity and beauty, and he gave mankind dominion over all of the earth. We have record in the book of Genesis, that the earth was watered by an underground spring instead of rain; women would not have pain during child birth; men would not struggle when tending to the earth - and all of that changed when man chose to sin by disobeying God. God tells us that the wages of sin is death. (Gen 2:4-6; 3:1-24)
The first record of thunderous and destructive rain comes when man does not heed the warning to repent of their wicked ways and the "great fountains of the deep" (Gen 7) flooded the earth - it is important to note that God always warns of the consequences of sin and what is to come if man does not turn from their wicked ways.
We can see from these passages of Scripture that God clearly allowed the corruption of His creation as a result of the disobedience of mankind - many of the natural disasters we have are from the effects of the corruption - or malfunction if you will, of the way things were intended to function.
On the other hand, we have record of "acts of God" which were fully intended and inflicted by God Himself, such as the flood, the plagues in Egypt, and still to come, the wrath of God as described in the book of Revelation.
The answer quite simply is - there are "acts of God' and there are "natural disasters" which are the results of a decaying creation. Still how do we know the difference? That which happened in the historical accounts and those which have yet to come as described in the book of revelation are easily identified as acts of God. But during this time - our time, I am convinced that we, as finite beings cannot assign certain disasters to the deliberate hand of God. It bothers me that there are Christian leaders who believe they can discern the difference. To me, it speaks arrogance.
Many would believe it doesn't matter if it is a direct act of God or a natural disaster - if there is a God what is the point of allowing it in the first place? I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Although, I might have different reasons than that of a non-believer. The purpose is to bring the heart of man to Himself. When people question the reason for life, they turn to Him, and this makes it all worth it. The entire theme of the Bible is redemption. It is the record of the history of creation, mans failure and success, it reveals prophecy about God's plan of salvation - which came to pass through Jesus Christ - and it tells of the eternal destination of the soul of man. In the end, this is the bottom line.
"For this they (we) willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word, reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:5-9
This earth and its universe is dying and we are in the midst of experiencing the effects of it - but more importantly we as people die every day as a result of sin. But there is hope and an assurance of restoration to the beauty and eternal life that God intended. As we read in Romans, even creation itself is waiting for that day - the day new earth is created (The New Jerusalem) where nothing corrupt will be present - and only those found in the Book of Life will be found in it. (Read of the beauty of it in Rev 19-21.)
Jesus Himself shared the way of escape from the effects of corruption and that was through repentance and faith in Him as Savior. He spoke of love and unity and how treat others, but we must not forget that he also warned us of what would become of us if we refused. As any good father would, God warned us of the consequences and He told us what to watch for as the end of this age draws near.
"Jesus answered and said to them, Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, saying I am the Christ, and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of sorrows.." Matthew 24:4-8
Jesus told us it would happen - it is happening before our eyes. He has warned - will we listen?
It doesn't matter whether it is an act of God or a natural disaster, the point is, it is happening and where we end up in all of this depends on the most important choice of our lives. To some this may sound like a harsh message, to others it makes perfect sense, and still others are left with more questions than answers.
I encourage you to read all of the Scriptures references, but first invite the Holy Spirit of God into your heart so that He may reveal the message to your heart. I ask for forgiveness if this falls short of the expectation of the one for whom it was written. To all I say, come - let us reason together.
For a more scientific explanation of what I have said here, I invite you to visit The Institute for Creation Research at www.icr.org and Answers in Genesis at www.answersingenesis.org
(C) Teresa Ortiz 2010
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More commentsGreat article, T! I guess I hadn't really thought about it before. I just know when things happen, HE is our only hope for comfort.Hi Lorrie, me either, at least not to the point of trying to be technical about it. In the end, you are right. He is our only hope and comfort. Love ya!
Dear Teresa,I was happy to finally read your article. It was a long time coming, but well worth the wait.I have a number of comments I would like to make, but I will start off with the principle one. You say: There are "acts of God' and there are "natural disasters" which are the results of a decaying creation. Still how do we know the difference? As far as I can see, there is no difference.In the biblical accounts, God said a plague on the people of Egypt and the people of Egypt were plagued, God said slaughter the people of Jericho and the people of Jericho were slaughtered. Clearly, these were acts of God, because God insisted on taking credit for them.However, if God created the universe and everything that is in it, He also created the mechanisms and processes by which the universe would decay. He must therefore know exactly what is going to happen and when it is going to happen.To deny this, it would seem to me, would be tantamount to saying that some things in the universe He created are beyond His control. It's as if the earthquakes that split the ground, the hurricanes that rent the air, the volcanoes that spew out searing lava, etc., somehow have "free will," which the Bible says was granted man alone.Conclusion: The labels "act of god" and "natural disaster" make a distinction without a difference. They are both acts of God.Please comment.Best regards,PhilHi Phil,It's good to hear from you - I think you got my point :-) There is a distinction in that some things God specifically calls to judgement and sets in motion what it takes to accomplish His will and purpose - it is all to bring man to repentance. But there are also things that God allows and things "just happen". For instance, Katrina, I don't believe that we can say for sure (like many did) that God stirred the heavens and caused Katrina to happen because New Orleans is a place of the devil. It could have been a result of our weather patterns that were caused by the process of decay. They are indeed both under the control of God - for this is His creation. And you said it well, God knows what and when things are going to happen. ( Remember we talked about the foreknowledge of God?) He knew that sin would enter the world and he made provision for it, His creation is perfectly designed, and it is why He has given us His word, to heed the warning and turn to Him - if we choose to make excuses or deny the proven accuracy of the Bible, then we cannot blame Him on the day we face Him. Like I said in the article - the fact is, these things are happening as we were told they would, it is up to us to respond. (As you know, this is always my conclusion.)Did you know that there is a book in Heaven that records all the conversations every person ever has about God and Jesus? It amazes me, God keeps record of every time we speak of Him, It is called the book of rememberence. (Malachi 3:16-18) I believe these are one of the many books that will be opened on Judgement day as Revelation tells us, "And the books were opened".I am so glad that you thought it was worth the wait. I am looking forward to your response.Blessings dear friend,TeresaDear Teresa,Do I understand from your comments that other than "free will", which like the age of the earth is open to debate : -), we agree that everything else in the universe is known to and orchestrated by God, i.e. earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, etc.? If this is correct, then we are much more in agreement than I thought we would be.However, this raises some significant questions. Again, I will deal with only one that has bothered me forever and for which I have found no satisfactory answer. It concerns the story of Moses and the Egyptians. According to the Bible, Moses was instructed by God to go to Pharaoh to order him to free the Israelite slaves. When Pharaoh refused, God reined horrible punishment on the Egyptian people, including slaughtering newborns. The question is: Why? It was Pharaoh who refused to comply, yet the entire nation suffered.I have heard it argued that all Egyptians were punished because they were complicit with Pharaoh by following his orders (including the newborn?), so they deserved their punishment. To me, this makes about as much sense as punishing the survivors of the World War II slave labor camps because they had worked for the Nazis.There are many other examples of God ordering massacres (e.g. Jericho), but the story of Moses and Pharaoh has always been the one that has stuck most painfully in my throat. What are we supposed to learn from this about the nature of God and his relationship to man?As a point of information, you said "there is a book in Heaven that records all the conversations every person ever has about God and Jesus." In my Bible the verse you sited (Malachi 3:16-18) frequently mentions the LORD, which I presume means God; there is no mention of Jesus. Malachi is the last book of the Old Testament. Is there any mention of Jesus by name anywhere in the Old Testament?Sincere regards,PhilHi Phil, sorry for the delay in responding. Did you get my email?Hi Phil,Thank you for your kind words.Linda's comment - Praise God, just means that she is thankful and praising God that the outcome was not as suspected. We are to praise God in all things, I think you might be reading a bit too much into it. If the answer were yes, there is cancer present, it will still be a praise God! Not for the cancer but because God is sovereign and he will give the strength and will to get through whatever was ahead.I was side tracked on going to the article and answering your questions, so now that I have a moment (I am on a break at work), I thought I would cover a few.First, Jesus is all over the Old Testiment. He is not mentioned by name, only by "Savior", "Messiah"The new testatment is the first time we are given his earthly name. Also, Jesus was present with the israelites through out their journies. Paul tells us this in the new testament when he refers to the wanderings of the old testament.Jesus was also present when Meshach, Shadderack and Abidnego were thrown in the fire. I can't give you one Scripture, it is all over, also the King of Salem who appeared to Abraham in the desert was actually Jesus. This is found in the book of Hebrews.As far as the wiping out of the Eygptian children, God knows the heart of man, from beginning to end. He knows the path a man will choose. Also, lets not forget that Pharoah ordered all male children killed of the Hebrews.I see it like this - (poor explanation I am sure)Just because something is a "infant" doesn't mean its not lethal. For instance. If you saw the most poisonous spider near your baby's crib, wouldn't you kill it? Now if there was a sack of baby spiders as well, would you allow them to live and grow, knowing they will bite and kill your child? Of course you would wipe out the babies as well.We have to remember that God is Just and Fair, he sees things we do not. Somethings in our finite and sinful nature, we are unable to understand. It does not make God unjust, it just reveals our limited knowledge.I hope this helps for now?Bottom line,Have you surrendered and sought forgiveness for your sin? :-)Hugs dear friend.TeresaBreak is over, back to workDear Teresa,Yes, I received your email. I have been reluctant to respond because I didn't know what to say. You indicated yourself that your reply to my question about the biblical account of Moses and the Pharaoh was probably inadequate. I have no option but to agree.Surely your comment "Let's not forget that Pharaoh ordered all male children killed of the Hebrews" was meant to be facetious. I have heard of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. But a baby for a baby!You say that "Just because something is an "infant" doesn't mean it's not lethal." In most cases, yes it does, particularly for human babies. This was the argument that Hitler used for slaughtering Jewish babies. Not that they were lethal in themselves, but that they grow up.You say that "God knows the heart of man, from beginning to end. He knows the path a man will choose." Doesn't this invalidate the concept of free will? As God's special creatures, aren't we supposed to be able to take decisions and act on our own? If yes, then God's slaughter of babies not only seems morally repugnant, but also logically contradictory. Either we decide for ourselves, with God judging our decisions after the fact. Or our actions are predestined, in which case Man's special place in creation is illusory. Which is it?I am also concerned about the idea that because "God is just and fair," then everything He does is good and moral, even if many of the actions ascribed to Him in the Bible would make Hitler look like a choirboy. This is extremely hard to swallow. How are we supposed to be upright and moral when we see God committing acts that seem to go against every moral precept we have ever learned, including the Ten Commandment? I am truly flummoxed.Your friend,PhilHi Phil, it has been forever, I know - but you are never far from my thoughts and prayers :-)First, I need to say that you have a valid argument. One that is nearly impossible for me to refute, so I am not going to try in my own finite mind. I cannot speak for the reasons why God does what he does, all I know for sure is that He is a God of order and justice and that justice in my finite mind seems like injustice because I am not all knowing and all seeing. I don't think our free will is messed with in any manner just because God may step in and cut our life short - though , only short in our understanding. The Bible says that the day of a man is known and each one of us is appointed a time to die. As far as the children (babies) of the Egyptians - I would certainly believe that the sin of ignorance would be covered and that these babies went straight to heaven before they had a chance to grow into evil adults as many of the adults were. I count on God's justice for everything I do not understand. Throughout the plagues God gave the Egyptian people opportunity to escape judgment if they heeded the voice of Moses' warnings.As far as your question of why God would allow the whole Moses and Pharaoh scenario - God gives us this answer, though I fear it will only create in you more questions - which always lead you away from the bottom line. But I agreed to give you an answer for every question as long as I knew the answer.There are many Scriptures that talk about God's sovereignty and how we as finite and created beings will never fully be able to understand the things of God, only those things that he gives us the ability to understand. Some things will always belong to God and are not for us to understand -So at the risk of creating more questions - following are a list of Scriptures I am praying and trusting that the Holy Spirit will have his way in your heart and you will hear the message of the words even if you do not fully comprehend the "why" of it all."I will make a difference between my people and your people" Exodus 8:20"And the Lord will make a difference.." Exodus 9:4"That you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth" Exodus 9:14"..that you may know that the Lord does make a difference between the Egyptians and Israel" Exodus 11:7bAt first glance and out of context, it looks like God is being arrogant. But in context He is showing a difference in his power - He is reaching out to the hearts of the Egyptians, offering them freedom from false gods, who aren't gods at all, and to turn to the only God who can bless and change them for the better. The same protection offered to the Israelites was offered all the way until the end for the Egyptians (Read Exodus chapter 9)Here are some other passages that speak of God's sovereignty (you agreed with me on this one early on about God being God and Him setting the rules)"Woe to him who strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him who forms it, "what are you making?" Or shall your handiwork say, "He has no hands? Woe to him who says to his father, What are you begetting?" Isaiah 9-10"For so the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you and that My name might be declared in all the earth'. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom he wills He hardens. You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted his will? But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Romans 9:15-20aThen we have Scriptures like:"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in Him will never perish but have everlasting life""Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed him stricken by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:4-6We definitely need more room :-)The truth is, we can continue to question the incomprehensible, and use it as an excuse for rejecting God and Jesus Christ. But I wonder why it is that we do use Scriptures that speak of mercy, forgiveness and God counting the cost to provide salvation so that man can be restored to Him as a reason to reject God. Why not just say, No thank you God, I don't need Jesus, I got it covered.As I will always say, it comes down to the bottom line - we are accountable for what we do know and that is we know we are sinners and we know that their is a God. The question is what are we going to do about it.Blessings to you dear friend :-)TeresaJuly 26, 2010Dear Teresa,I just now became away of this new posting. I find it intriguing—and unsatisfying. As you seemed to suggest, I will not raise questions about the scriptural passages you cited because your own words raise enough questions by themselves.1. "I cannot speak for the reasons why God does what he does, all I know for sure is that He is a God of order and justice . . ."We agree that something created the universe; I have no aversion to calling this God. But I do not know for sure that He is a God of order and justice, or anything else about Him. Starting from the belief that God created the universe tells us nothing about His nature. One must come to this conclusion by reading the Bible or some other means, but I don't see how either one of us can know it for sure. Please explain.2. "As far as the children (babies) of the Egyptians - I would certainly believe that the sin of ignorance would be covered and that these babies went straight to heaven before they had a chance to grow into evil adults as many of the adults were."a. Is ignorance a sin? Haven't we previously agreed that ignorance is not a sin, that we can be held responsible only for the things we know, not the things we don't know?b. The Egyptian babies apparently had the good fortune of being struck down before they could grow up and do something later in life that would send them to hell. A very interesting thought. Does this mean that those who die young, preferably at birth or very shortly thereafter, are favored of God? What about the rest of us who are not taken at an early age? Are we disfavored by God?3. "Throughout the plagues God gave the Egyptian people opportunity to escape judgment if they heeded the voice of Moses' warnings."Did the Egyptian people even know about Moses' warnings? Certainly the Pharaoh didn't broadcast them and I find nothing in the Bible to suggest that the Egyptians were made aware of the warnings in any other way. Maybe I missed it. Could you please cite chapter and verse?4. "As I will always say, it comes down to the bottom line - we are accountable for what we do know and that is we know we are sinners and we know that their is a God."At the risk of repeating myself, I know that something created the universe which we can call God. That is all I know. (?)I certainly do not know that we are all sinners, and I find the idea appalling.5. " The truth is, we can continue to question the incomprehensible, and use it as an excuse for rejecting God and Jesus Christ."I disagree. Questioning the incomprehensible is not an excuse for rejecting God and Jesus Christ; however it is a reason for not accepting them. All the religions I have ever been exposed to cite incomprehensible stories and make incomprehensible claims. If Christianity is the true religion, the fact that are still wrangling over its truth 2000 years after the birth of Christ suggests that the message has been very poorly propagated. The same applies to all other religions. The fact that we are still arguing, fighting, oppressing, and murdering each other bears witness to this woeful state of affairs. Any God of justice and order would certainly do a better job than this. To date, His performance has been lamentably unconvincing.I hope these comments don't sound too obstreperous. They are a heart-felt expression of what I truly think and feel.Your friend,PhilHi Phil,Sorry for the delay in responding. I just don't have the time I used to. With working 40 hours a week away from home, writing and working on the sitcom, and teaching - oh and then there are the wife things :-) No need to worry, thanks for checking in on me and reminding me to get back here.I appreciate your heartfelt expressions - I only wish more conversations on SW between a believer and a non believer can be as ours has and will continue to be.1. As I mentioned many times in the past, the Bible is the only book that speaks of History, the future, the state of man, and the remedy. The prophecies in the Bible have been proven to be 100% accurate. The fact that many writers over a long period of time could write in such unity is Divine. The problem is that people love the part about a loving and forgiving God, but they hate the part about the Holiness and Justice of God.I know you have a hard time thinking that all mankind are sinners, but this is the truth. We all bare evidence to this fact - just look at society, we are a mess. I believe I asked you this before - Do you say you have never done anything wrong in your life? Never a bad decision that hurt someone or yourself? What then of our conscience and gult. Where do you suppose the idea of right and wrong or good and evil came from if not from our Creator?I know this story of Moses and Pharroah baffles and upsets you, but if the Bible is not true, why the frustration? It is either all true - and we need to pay attention, or it is all false and thus no need to worry about anything it says. But God said He created us to need him and he put eternity in our hearts - this is why everyone wonders about the after life - if any. Also it is why we have so many religions. People pick and choose a "truth of their own" when they disagree with God's truth. We humans tend to create God in our own image.The Eygptian people did have a choice - As I qouted a few Scriptures above, God let it be known. They were all watching when pharraoh tried to get his magicians to copy the miracles ( Exodus 7-8) performed by God through the rod of Aaron. Also Read Exodus 9:13 -20.You are right, I used the term "sin" to loosely here, ignorance is not a sin in the technical sense. God is no respector of persons.The fact that the Bible, it's message and Christianity is still around shows yet again that Jesus' words are true. For he also told us that there will be false messiahs, false religions, and many other things the devil will use to keep people from believing the truth.Test for yourself - of all other sacred books - which has prophecy that is 100% accurate. Which has historical places and events recorded that have been proven accurate by outside sources an non Christians - Which tells of the coming of Jesus Christ in 100's of ways and record that Jesus fullfilled over 100 prophecies alone? Which book has over 8000 manuscripts that record the same doctrine and historical events?The death a baby does not mean they are more favored than an adult because they get to go to heaven. Again it goes back to accountability for what they know and what information is provided to them.We who grow up have evidence of God's creation, we have his word the Bible that instructs, and we have our conscience that bears witness to us that we are not perfect people and we have chosen wrong (sin) and for this we must give an account.We accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and repent of our sin to our Creator or we simply disregard His word and our consciences. Either way the choice is ours and we will reap the reward or consequence. It's all laid out in the Bible for our learning.You must forgive me for my lack in ability to answer some of your questions. Some are directed in a way that I cannot possibly understand the mind of God in His fullness. I can only share what he has made known in his word. - This alone keeps us going :-)I think we have beat the Moses story to a pulp and I will not be able to satify you, but the answers I gave were biblical.What's next my friend? :-)September 24, 2010 Dear Teresa, You response to my questions about the Moses story really leaves me flummoxed. Are we reading the same Bible? As you suggested, I read Exodus 7-8 and came up with the shocking statement: Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it." "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you." In other words, it was God's intention that Pharaoh would not listen to Moses, whose refusal would then be used as justification for plaguing the people of Egypt, including the slaughter of newborns! This is truly frightening. I can only hope that these words of God are a mistranslation of the original Scriptures or a misinterpretation on my part. I have a few other things to say about your latest text, but they pale into insignificance compared to this truly horrifying revelation. Please comment as quickly as possible! Best regards, PhilHi Phil,
How are you doing my friend? It goes back to God's foreknowledge which we discussed early on. God knew what Pharaoh would choose and based on that choice, He used him to accomplish His will and to demonstrate and show Himself to the people. But based on your email response to me, none of this really matters because if you think the Bible is just the work on man why try to make sense of this? Maybe it was just the perception of the Hebrew people.
With respect, your reasoning for not wanting to follow along a book of the Bible doesn't make sense because isn't that what started our whole conversation over a 1 year ago? Taking hard to grasp or understand issues of the Bible and discussing them?
Again. I love how our conversations have gone. There has been many great discussions and input from others and even a lot of personal emails that have resulted in others coming to see the context and truth of the Bible, so for that I am forever grateful to you. As Paul stated in one of His letters, no matter the reason for discussion, whether pretense or truth, the gospel is preached and for that He rejoices. This is how I feel about our conversation and I do hope it continues to serve as an example of how two people with opposing views can have a respectful and calm discussion. I think its much needed public forums. Blessings to you dear friend, it's been great!October 26, 2010
Dear Teresa,
I too love how our conversations have gone and hope they continue in the same vein.
To return to Exodus 7-8, while I don’t believe these are the true words of God, you do. I would therefore ask you to read the passage again to help me better understand it.
God does not say to Moses, “I know that the Pharaoh’s heart is hard; therefore he will not listen to you." He says, “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart." I find no way of understanding this other than exactly what it says, “I will ensure that Pharaoh refuses." God then continues, “I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites." He does not say, “I will reveal myself as the one true God so that the Egyptians will recognize and heed me." He then imposes these mighty acts of judgment, not only on Pharaoh, but on the whole nation, including the slaughtering of newborns.
I find this passage truly terrifying. Surely God could have devised a better, less bloodthirsty way to accomplish His will.
Yes, I do not believe that the Bible is the divine word of God, because I have no reason to. But you and hundreds of millions of others do. This is precisely why we are engaged in this discussion. I am not so much trying to understand the Bible as to understand the people who fervently take it at its word despite its numerous and manifest contradictions. The nature of my mind does not allow me to believe despite the evidence. It will not allow me to believe and embrace that which appears to be illogical and unbelievable, be it the Bible or any other “holy book."
With respect, our discussions started with my questions and your certainty, i.e. the Bible is the true word of God. Although these discussions have been delightful, I think there has been no advance on either side -- I still question and you are still certain. I think this is unlikely to change, but they are surely worth continuing.
As you know, I am a dilettante with religions. I grew up in a western Christian society, so I know enough about Christianity to ask questions. I know essentially nothing about any other religion. Have you ever had similar discussions with true believers in Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, or other religions? If so, how did they respond?
Your friend,
Phil
Hello dear friend! It has been a long time! Happy new year to you!
I agree our conversations have been fun and I can't say it enough - it is so refreshing to have a respectful conversation when we have obvious differences. I wish I would see it more here on SW. These conversations have also paved the way for many others who have contacted me and I am so grateful for that. I'm afraid your attempt to understand those of us how believe the Bible is futile. Because that would have to start with seeing why we believe the way we do. There are no contradictions in the Bible. However, there are things easily taken as such when one does not understand first that the Bible is given with three different purposes (historical, prophetical, and applicable) and each writer builds upon the next to give the whole picture. We have to realize that the Bible gives the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, which is more accurately described as the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Both revealing God's purpose and plan. And remember early on when I shared the passage that says, that it is a spiritually discerned book and without the leading of the Holy Spirit it will not be received or understood.
Yes, I have had many conversations with other religions, though never with any one from Sikhism or Jainism - honestly, I do not know much about their belief system. But of all whom I have had these kinds of discussions, most are polite, some have received Christ, and still a few others are hostile. I can't understand the hostile response, for it they truly did not believe the Bible or that they were not a sinner, then why should they be angry? But that gives me hope nonetheless, because it does mean their consciences are speaking to them :-)
I am happy to continue our discussions; however, I do suggest a different issue because we have hit the bottom on this Moses issue. I have given all the answers and Scriptures related to God's sovereignty and foreknowlege, so there is nothing more to say on this subject. And yes, the more I study, and answer questions to other, the stronger my understanding, thus the stronger my faith and love for my Lord. I do believe we made some ground on other issues :-)
Anyway, all the best to you - what else is on your mind? Have you checked out my John series? has anything I have mentioned given you cause to have new questions?
Your Friend,
TeresaJanuary 31, 2011
Dear Teresa,
I am inclined to continue the explore of Moses and Egypt largely because I have just seen a spin-chilling drama on the subject on BBC (British Broadcasting Company) television. It concerned a group of Jewish prisoners in Auschwitz who were conducting an all-night discussion about their plight, knowing that they would be liquidated in the gas chamber the next morning.
A key section of the discussion turned around the story of Moses and Egypt, with different participants coming to opposite conclusions.
1. We cannot understand the ways of God; we can only accept them in the knowledge that he loves us.
2. By any standards of decency and morality, God must be evil.
Since they could not come to a consensus, apparently we will not either. So as you suggest, let’s move on.
I do have a few questions that seem even more central that the story of Moses and Egypt.
I have just reread Genesis. While finding the well-known texts: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth . . ."
Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
What I didn’t find was any explanation for the purpose of creation, and how that creation, especially Man, is supposed to relate to God. This raises two fundamental questions.
First, if the universe was created for Man, then why is it so enormous and everything so far away? We know that the Earth represents no more than a single grain of sand in the Sahara. We also know that there are countless numbers of stars, galaxies, and presumably planets so far away that the mind boggles at even trying to imagine these distances. Can all this vastness really be necessary and useful for life on Earth?
Second, you have said that God’s message to Man is simple. He has set two specific requirements for being received into heaven rather than being consigned to hell: 1) Recognition of Him, 2) Recognition of Jesus. If that is the case, then why have hundreds of generations gone by with mankind still oppressing, suppressing, fighting, slaughtering each other over misinterpretations of that message. Anything that simple should be very easy to communicate, but clearly it hasn’t been.
How is it that God seems incapable of getting this simple message across? If you believe that God is almighty, then it is not that He is incapable of doing it. So the only conclusion is that He is disinclined to do it, which is even worse. It seems that He is perfectly content to let mankind, his supreme creation, continually tear itself apart over how we are supposed to relate to Him rather than making His intentions unmistakably clear.
Can this be correct?
A small but interesting point. God created all the animals on Earth and gave them the injunction “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." So apparently it was His intention from the beginning that his creatures should reproduce. Except for Adam, who had no possibility of reproducing until “The LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help mate for him."
Does this mean that God made a mistake in creation by not originally creating a sexual partner for Adam? Can God make mistakes?
Best regards,
Phil
Hi Phil, I haven't forgotten you :-)
I am considering your questions, and do have a response, but I need to take time and I have decided to put these answers in a "Answers to Biblical Questions part 5 - since this thread is getting smaller in space :-) Blessings dear friend, give me a week. I have some other things that I need to complete so I can focus on this.
Good article Teresa. It's amazing how many people want to keep their head in the sand. It's good to have you writing again although I am happy for you that you found a good job. God bless.Hi Linda, thank you, you never know what kind of feedback you will get on this kind of piece. Blessings to you - my job keeps me busy, and I know God has a purpose for me being there. keep growing in wisdom and faith. Hugs!
Amen Teresa! I couldn't agree more! After reading the first paragraph, the Romans scripture came to my mind as well! We can only look to the Bible and Christ. hear the warning and listen. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I think it will help many!Hi Laura, thank you for the encouraging words! The sad part is many will still not listen and will continue to try and reason the truth and accuracy of Scripture away. It is good to have had sometime to write. Lord willing, I will be doing it full time soon! :-)
Whatever the full meaning of the article which is very lengthy and complex, I believe that the earth is quaking for Jesus' return.......Hello Anon, sorry for the length, it was difficult to keep this complex subject any shorter, but you did see the bottom line. The earth is quaking for the return of Jesus, that is what the Romans passages - and many others - is all about. Blessings to you!
Your article is so true! God moves in mysterious ways and ours is not to question why, but to believe that He will deliver us. Continue to write young lady, for the Lord has put a message in your words that I pray will reach the millions who are in need of God in their lives today.Hello Joe, nice to meet you! Thank you for the kind and encouraging words - this is the main reason I write, and thank you for the added prayer. I look forward to reading your work. Blessings to you!
Very well done. I am stunned at the 'preachers' who say natural disasters and / or God's Will are a result of revenge for doing something wrong. You are correct in that it is up to us how to react to these events, and to blame God is absurd. These things have always happened and will continue to happen, and only in the End will we know whether it is (or was) God's will or simple nature.Thanks for sharing this. Very enlightening.Hi Michael, how are you doing? Thank you for the your input, I always appreciate your perspective. I am so glad to hear this was helpful. Blessings to you!Dear Mr. Ramzy,I am intrigued by your statement that "These things (natural disasters) have always happened and will continue to happen, and only in the End will we know whether it is (or was) God's will or simple nature."Are you suggesting that nature is independent of God and beyond His control? If so, then how was nature created. And how does it operate? If God is the alpha and omega of everything, then nature must be part of His creation and subject to His will.The insurance companies seem to have it correct. So-called "natural disasters" should more properly be called "acts of God," for truly that is what they are.Regards,Philip Yaffe
Beautifully written, Sis. I cannot find anything lacking in it.Thank you Bro, I am glad it came through with some meat :-) blessings to you!
Very good article, Teresa - I had never thought about the natural disasters vs acts of God before but you are so right. Entrope (or however it is spelled) is the 2nd law of thermodynamics and that makes total sense. looking forward to reading more!Hi Marijo, thanks! Hopefully I will get more written :-)
Wonderful work here, Sis. How sad and senseless life would be if our time on earth was "it," with no hope of God or heaven! I hope this piece helped your friend grasp the concept of eternity.Thanks Ken. It is so true. God is amazing and there is so much more of Him to grasp. But it starts with admitting our need. So simple, yet so difficult. Keep the faith Bro, Bro!
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