Teresa Ortiz

God's Perfectly Permissive will and the Reconciliation of Man - Answers to Biblical Questions Part 3



Posted: Sunday, August 09, 2009

by Teresa Ortiz
Freelance writer/Speaker

As discussed toward the end of part 2 in this series, mankind inherited a sinful nature and were consequently born spiritually dead due to the sin of Adam and Eve thus the need for reconciliation to the Creator God by being born again by His Spirit.

This leads us to another set of questions posed. As with the previous articles, I will humbly cover the subjects noted in the title of this piece, understanding and acknowledging there are varying degrees of thought within the Christian community. Nevertheless, each comes to the same conclusion; man is in need of redemption and that redemption is supplied by the atoning death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is given by the Grace of God through a genuine faith in Christ, which is proven by an obedient lifestyle.

This series is intended for informational purposes as many people want to know why the Christian Faith speaks of such harsh topics as sin and hell. As always I welcome input from other believers.

On God's perfect and permissive will The idea that God has two wills has caused a lot of division in the body of Christ, much like the idea of Election VS Free Will which will be touched on in a few moments.

The problem is that we as humans have a hard time with the possibility that two seemingly opposing thoughts can be true at the same time. This can be frustrating and the natural response is to conclude that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and therefore cannot be true in all that it teaches or implies. We want one verse to spell it all out for us. This however, is not how the Bible works. It is a collection of books that build upon and compliment each other in complete harmony if we are willing to take the time to put it all together. When we do this, with the help of God's Holy Spirit teaching us, we begin to see how beautifully connected the Bible is and we are able to understand how the teachings we once thought were contradictory actually work together.

Let's continue with this thought in mind.

If we are to believe God has a perfect will, why then do bad things happen? If he is a God of love as we Christians profess, then why Hell? The argument is that a God of love would not send anyone to hell, so we Christians have it all wrong. This is where God's permissive will comes in; His perfect will says, do not sin, come to me. His permissive will says, I am not going to force you, you are free to choose. Someone once said told me this was just a cop-out, something to try and account for every little thing that comes up. Fair enough, but instead of looking at God's two wills as separate thoughts, I combine them and say, God's will is perfectly permissive. He created a perfect set of standards and beauty for living and in His love, he gave man permission (free will) to do as he pleased, but not without consequence it was a perfect plan that he accounted for long before he spoke the words "let there be light". God's will is always accomplished whether we respond to his perfect will for our lives or take control of our own destiny and act in accordance with his permissive will. An example most relative to the next set of questions is Heaven and Hell. God's perfect will created a means of reconciliation and an ultimate return to a new "Eden", which is heaven. His permissive will created a place for those who would remain separated and outside of "Eden", ultimately Hell, for refusing his provison of reconciliation. Let's read together:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him [Jesus] should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3: 16-18 Jesus speaking.

2 Peter 3:9 indicates that God's perfect will is that no one perish, but the truth is many have and will until the return of Christ. Why is this? Our answer is found in several scriptures, but is abundantly clear in John 3:16 Mankind is already condemned. We are born this way, Jesus had no need to come and condemn those who were already condemned; instead He came to lift the condemnation for those who would believe in him. God does not send anyone to hell, we send ourselves stomping on the cross of Christ along the way.

On the reconciliation of man

Since mankind is born separated from God (spiritually dead) because of sin, what can we do can a dead man resurrect himself? Even the Scriptures teach that the Spirit of God resurrected Jesus. (Romans 6:4 and Romans 8:11) So what are our options? There is only one and that is to be completely dependant upon the grace of God and this is were Election and Free Will come in. Also known as Predestination and Free Will, which is another area where some tend to say it is one or the other; either God calls you and you have no choice but to respond, or you have complete free will and can call on God whenever you want.

Then there are those who believe as I do, and that is that it is not one or the other, but it is both working together in accordance with God's foreknowledge and his perfectly permissive will.

Following are several passages that seem to contradict each other. However, if we allow them to build upon each other, we will be able to see that they work together.

Jesus speaking to his disciples on being reconciled to God (being "saved" or "born again")

"Jesus answered and said to him, most assuredly, I say to you, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'." John 3:3

"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. And this is [also] the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up on the last day'" John 6:39-40

"No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh prophets nothing. The worlds that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe'. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe and who would betray Him. And He said, Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" John 6:63-65

" All authority has been given to Me by the Father"Matthew 28:18

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to myself". John 12:32

Jesus makes it clear that no one can respond to Jesus unless God calls him or her. Then we read that Jesus was given equal authority by his Father, and in this, Jesus will draw all men to himself.

But who is included in the all? We read that Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who wouldn't with this in mind, let's read the following passages of Scripture:

"To the pilgrims of the Dispersionelect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus" 1 Peter 1:1-2

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

We see here that God acted according to his foreknowledge in calling to salvation those whom he knew would respond.

Much time has been spent on this to reiterate that God does not create people for the sole purpose of picking and choosing who will go to hell. That is not in accordance with his character. He does however, use his created beings to accomplish his will. The Bible talks about those who were brought forth for wrath again this is according to his foreknowledge.

So where does this leave you and me? How do we know if we are "called"? There is nothing theologically deep about this. If we are (or ever were) curious about the things of God, if we are wrestling with our conscience, and if deep in our hearts we know there is a God and we are just making one excuse after another to keep from him, then we can bet we are called. The Father has drawn us to Jesus the question is what will we do?

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes to righteousness and with the mouth confession is made to salvation. For the Scripture says, whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between the Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For whoever calls upon the name of the LORD shall be saved." Romans 10:9-13.

I have only scratched the surface, there is much more to be said about each of these issues, especially regarding the richness of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the atonement for our sin. (Remember God was not satified with Adam and Eve's attempt to cover themselves, it took God providing a covering of His own for them.) I will cover this in part 4. For now, I welcome additional discussion in the comments below. Thank you for staying with me. I pray this has been enlightening, if only a little.

For further in-depth theological teaching on these and related topics, visit www.equipthesaints.com , listen to the audio stream on the teaching through the book of Romans. Or go to www.godandscience.org for other informative articles.

You can also read the following article as an introduction to Part 4 here

(C) Teresa Ortiz - The Substitutionary Death of Jesus - Answers to Biblical Questions Part 4

Teresa is an author, a speaker, and the Editor-in-Chief for RMS1437 Publishing. She has been married for 26 years and has three grown children. Her greatest joy is leading others closer to Christ through practical study of the word of God. She prefers using the lighter things in life and a good laugh to make her point, but realizes the darker and deeper things of life must also be addressed. For more information on her available books, or speaking engagements, visit www.teresaortiz.com.
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» left by robert
 2 years 284 days ago.
Well young lady I have watched you grow as a writer and you are doing fab -u-lus. I liked all of what you wrote but copied this "We see here that God acted according to his foreknowledge in calling to salvation those whom he knew would respond."" and your subsequent answer is excellent. Your numerous replies signifies that you do stir the pot which is great. Phil asking some rather interesting questions. yet as you know, Jesus is "the way" and your article spells it out although many reject it "whom he knew would respond". Yes given to all.

» left by Philip Yaffe from Brussels, Belgium 2 years 278 days ago.
23 August 2009
 
Dear Teresa,
 
Thanks for your latest message. I didn't think you were ignoring me. Friends don't do that.
 
I very much enjoy reading what your latest contribution; however, I am still left hungry. I have asked somevery specific questions but don't seem to be getting specific answers. Let me repeat a couple of them.
 
1. As I understand it, God has set two specific requirements for being received in heaven rather than being consigned to hell: 1) Recognition of Him, 2) Recognition of Jesus. Most people around the world recognize God, i.e. some kind of supreme. Most people around the world do not recognize Jesus because most people have never heard of him or have been raised in a tradition that makes it difficult, if not impossible, to recognize him. Does this mean that all of these billions of people are going to be consigned to hell?
 
2. You say that man has free will, but you also say: "Romans chapter one makes it clear that everyone before they die will have the truth revealed to them. Remember, God knows those who will respond." This sounds like predestination. Please explain.
 
One's eternal pleasure or punishment depends on following God's plan, yet there is no agreement on what that plan is. In addition to other religions with totally different ideas on the subject, even among Bible believers there is no unanimity. Jews accept the Old Testament, but do not believe that the Messiah has yet come. Muslims also draw inspiration from the Bible, but believe that the Koran supersedes it. The Mormons also draw inspiration from the Bible, but also believe that it is incomplete without with later chapters in the Book of Mormon. All of this creates enormous confusion.
 
Even if you accept the Old and New Testaments together as being the completed work, the various translations also lend to confusion. Two crucial examples from the Ten Commandments (Decalogue):
 
1. The First Commandment says. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me." How is this to be interpreted? If it had said: "I am the one and only God; you shall worship no others, because they are all false," this would have been clear. But the way it is put makes God sound like Zeus, the chief god among all the other Greek gods.
 
2. The Sixth Commandment says: "Thou shalt not kill." Period. Nothing else. The Quakers, among others, have traditionally taken this commandment at its word. Thus, they have declared themselves conscientious objectors in time of war, at the cost of much humiliation and persecution. Others seem to have interpreted this commandment to have implied, not written, qualifications such as: "Thou shalt not kill except in defend yourself, defend your property, defend your country, whenever your government tells you to, etc.
 
Where is clarity in all of this? How can anyone be expected to follow God's law when there is so much controversy over what it actually is? With no intention of disrespect, I can't help but think that if God wants us to choose to follow His law, then there must be a better way of making them known than anything we have seen until now. Please comment.
 
Regards,
 
Phil
» left by Teresa 2 years 274 days ago.
Hi Phil, how are you today?
 
I thought I answered these first two questions already, sorry about that.
 
Romans 1 and throughout the book of Isaiah discuss knowing in our hearts that there is a God. The bible is clear that we are accountable for what we know - In Romans one, we read that creation itself speaks of a creator. If there are men and women in places that have not heard of Jesus the son of God, they will not be held accountable. What they will be held accountable for is worshipping the creation instead of the Creator. And still it goes back to conscience, not matter what culture, everyone has been given a conscience and in this if they call of the God of creation, God will respond and they will be saved.(Isaiah) Romans also talks about the fact that people will not know unless there is a preacher and when they hear the truth the spirit of God will be witness with their spirit and they will know the truth. So, if a person is worshipping the God of creation and then a missionary (by the Spirit) or the Holy Spirit Himself reveals the entire truth to them, they will respond to that truth and repent of sin. The old testament and the new testament both discuss unknown sin and how sin is not sin until it is revealed. As I mentioned in the last one or two responses, we need to remember that God is just and he is capable of revealing himself to a person on the highest hill in the the farthest of places. This is not predestination in the sense that God has decided who will go to heaven and who will not. The bible never speaks of predestination in relation to Salvation, only in relation to being conformed into the image of Christ based on his foreknowledge. He does not force people into their decisions, but he knows what they will choose. The key is what will you and I do with the knowledge of Jesus Christ? All who know of the Son of God will be responsible for having this knowledge and we will be asked of God on judgement day, "what did you do with my Son".
 
The knowledge of God's plan is laid out in the Holy Bible. It is the only "holy" book that has been proven to be accurate, historically and prohetically, its teaching has never changed. True there are various thoughts, however, every Bible Believing Christian denomination agrees on the 5 essential doctrines taught in the bible which make it "Christian" (You can view these articles on World Wide Bible Studies dot org under the heading "doctrinal fundamentals" in the box found on the bottom right side of the front page, they are much to long to put here.)
 
The reason I say biblical Christianity is because there are religions that call themself a Christian denomination, but in fact when you compare the doctrinal teaching of who God is, you find they do not believe the essential doctrines. There is a difference from drawing inspiration from the bible and taking it as truth. The bible is not just an inspirational book. It has central and important information about the nature and character of God and it reveals the Divinity of Jesus Christ. It makes claims that are either true or false. One example is the person of Jesus Christ, he claimed to be God in the flesh, he claimed to be the Savior of Man and the one who has been given all equal authority as His father and he is Creator. Yet some, religious groups claim he was a good man, and a great leader, but they reject the idea of his divinity. They say he was a created being given a divine nature. How can this be? He is either telling the truth, or he is not a good man at all, more like a lunatic whose every word was untrue. What about his miracles? See we can't pick and choose what we will believe from the bible. We either accept all the proof of its validity or we say it is nothing but a sham. Also, some of the other groups have different "sacred" books within their own teachings that contradict one another and over the years their "divine revelation" has changed. How can truth change? These are things we all must consider. Also, millions of Musslims, Hindus, Buddist, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and others have converted to Biblical Christianity. In fact one of my teachers was a leader in the Mormon church for many years, but when he began to see the contradictions in  its own  teaching and what it taught about God, and how it went against everything Isaiah had to say, he left the church. 
Some of the questions you ask have the answers spread out throughout the bible. Yet the essentials are pointed and direct.
 
You ask why didn't God just say he is the only God and they are not to worship any other? He did. Several times. Not in the ten commandments because he was speaking directly to his people and at the time, He was the only God they worshipped so he had no need to say it. The ten commandments where given to the people of Israel as a standard and a tutor to show them they they would always need God, and to be a light to the gentiles. Romans, Hebrews and Colossians discusses this issue in detail.
 
Read the book of Isaiah the prophet. (speaking to the children of Israel (and all nations) because they had turned from being the Light they were to be to all nations and began practicing and worshipping false God.
 
Here are just a few passages:
 
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and His Redeemer (jesus), the LORD of hosts:, 'I am the first and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.' Isaiah 44:6
 
"You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved. I have proclaimed.... Indeed before the day was, I am He and there is no one who can deliever out of My hand" Isaiah 43:10-12a, 13.
 
"I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides Me, I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they (everyone else) may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord and there is no other." Isaiah 45:5-6
 
"Assemble yourselves and come; Draw near together, you who have escaped from the nations. They have no knowledge, who cart the wood of their carved image, and pray to a god that cannot save. Tell and bring forth your case; yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I , the LORD? and there is no other God besides Me. a just God and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God and there is no other, I have swarn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return. That to Me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall take an oath. " Isaiah 45:20-23
 
These are just a few, not to mention all that is found elsewhere and in the New Testament regarding Jesus and in the book of Revelation.
 
It takes the entire bible put together and read as a whole. I appreciate your questions, but many of them, take a lot of searching and studying. God told us to search for Him and if we seek Him with our whole heart we will find him. The question is will we receive him and humble ourselves before him. We all feel it in our hearts; our conscience speaks, our hearts react - either with anger because we don't want to believe we are sinners, or it beats fast because we know its true and we want to take that step of faith, but are afraid and don't know how. We decide.
 
The clarity is found in studying the full counsel of God and not just picking through the bible when it suits our need. It also starts with the child like faith that says, "You are God and I am not - I don't know everything, but one thing I do know, and that is I am a sinner and I need and want forgiveness for my sin". When we take this step, we begin a life long journey on a relationship with God and by having His Holy Spirit indwelling us, we learn.
 
There are many different levels of understanding and that is why we have so many Christian denominations. Some emphasise different areas of Scripture more than others, but like I said we all agree on the essentials. One being, there are no other god's, never has been never will be.
 
Oh Regarding the sixth commandment, thou shall not kill - in the orginal language it means murder. Jesus clarifies this in the new testament when he taught that the commandments were summed up in Him and that it is a heart and mind issue and not just an outward issue.
 
I hope I covered these adequately for you, but like I said, it takes continual study and connecting the whole of Scripture. I look forward to our continued conversation.
 
Blessings to you my friend! Part 4 this weekend :-)
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 274 days ago.
188 fans.
oops, you have not answered my question - have you read the book of Romans? :-)
» left by Philip Yaffe 2 years 273 days ago.
12 fans.
28 August 2009
 
Dear Teresa,
 
Thanks for you copious response. As usual each new answer raises more questions. I will wait until your fourth instalment to see if they are answered.
 
Yes, I have read the Book of Romans. Several years ago, I read the Bible cover to cover because of its importance in history and the contemporary world. I was left unconvinced, which is why I am still asking questions.
 
I am very much looking forward to our further exchanges.
 
Regards,
 
Phil
 
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 271 days ago.
188 fans.
Sounds good. There will always be questions, even after all these years as a solid believer and student of the Bible, I have questions. God is bigger than us, and we will never understand everything in one shot, its a process. That is why the Scriptures tell us to pray without ceasing, to study to show ourselves approved unto God, and to seek the Holy Spirit of God for understanding, for He is the one who reveals all things along the way. That's good you read the entire Bible, it lead you to questions. God places in each of us the desire to know Him and the truth, He gives each of us enough faith to call out to him, then after we have taken the initial step of the basics (admitting we are not perfect and are in need of forgiveness) then, the Holy Spirit takes up residence in our hearts and minds and begins to reveal amazing things about our Creator as we read God's word. Remember in the book of Romans how Paul said Faith comes by hearing, and that hearing is the word of God? I believe that is what is happening. :-) This is one of the very basic reasons why I love studying the bible, it never grows old, it is fresh and new and I am always learning more and more about my Savior. Think about what Hebrews 4:12 says, the word of God is living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword... It convicts, and it comforts. I love it :-)  If it's been two years, maybe its time to read it again :-)
 
Please read the book of first John, it's only five chapters long, but it is packed with theology and grace and I will be using several Scriptures from it on part 4. In fact, don't just read it once, read it at least 5 times.  Also, wanted to mention to you that I have an indepth bible study, through the book of 1 John that I would love to send to you for free if you are interested.  It breaks down each chapter and verse and brings in supporting Scriptures. You might find it helpful. Just let me know and I can mail you a hard copy, or email a copy to you (you would have to print it out - 88 pages).
 
Talk to you soon. Teresa
» left by Philip Yaffe 2 years 269 days ago.
12 fans.
31 August 2009
 
 
Dear Teresa,
 
Thanks for offering to send me your Bible study, but we seem to be coming to an impasse. I have already read the Bible cover to cover and was not convinced that it is the true word of God, any more than I am convinced that the scriptures of any other religion are the true word of God. As you say, studying the Bible is a lifetime enterprise. I can't help wondering why God doesn't make it clear which of these competing texts is truly His. Or produce a new one and present it to the world in such a way that no one could possibly misunderstand. Doing this would seem to save a lot of time, energy, enmity, and presumable a lot of souls.
 
Regards,
 
Phil
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 264 days ago.
188 fans.
Hi Phil, how was your week? Mine was hectic, I didn't get anything done that I intened to. Things are finally back to normal - whatever that is :-)
 
When we compare the external and internal evidence of the Bible with all the evidence of external and internal evidence of any other sacred book, we find the Bible is the only one that has proof of people, places, and events that match up between old testament manuscripts and new testament manuscripts. (over 8000 copies ) What other sacred text has predicted so many events that have come to pass in the exact timing and place predicted. Over 100 predictions of the coming of Jesus alone, all fullfilled. Israel becoming a nation again, Being told the earth is round (which by the way, scientists & atheists used to as proof to say the bible was wrong) until techonology and science caught up with the bible and realized the earth is round. The Bible deals with life - death - God - the devil - heaven and hell, things that prick the heart of every man. It has wonderful words of encouragement and tells of bliss and how to live a good and happy life, but it doesn't stop there and this in my opinion is why it is hard to accept. It's why I had a hard time with it at first. 60 men; over 1000 years - no contradictions when put all together. Amazing.
 
The proof is there dear friend. As I mentioned, it all goes back to conscience. To ignore the truth in the bible is to ignore our conscience and guilt. What do we do with it? We either repent and confess our sin to God, or we work so hard at convincing ourselves we have no guilt, we do no wrong - we have no conscience. There is no heaven, there is no hell, there is no God. Romans talks about severing our conscience because we deny God so long, that we cannot hear him any longer.
 
To not believe the bible is true, we have to decide that everything in it is false, there was no king solomon, no king david, no Israel -Jesus was a lunatic - crazy man - who deceived many and convinced them to tell everyone they were healed. What kind of power did he have over the people who walked when he did, that they would say they were healed and really weren't. It was just a coincidence that the exact death of Jesus Christ and the exact date predicted 700 years+ was just a lucky guess by some crazy man who thought he was hearing voices from a God who doesn't exist and decided to write it down. And for what? His death meant nothing, poor crazy guy thought he was dying for the sins of all mankind?  
 
God says you are either for me or against me. There is no in between. When we face God we will have no excuse. When the books are opened we will not be able to tell him we did not know. Those books will reveal every time the truth was given to us. It will reveal the point in time our hearts were pricked and we were given that faith to believe it was true, it will reveal the moment we knew we were a sinner and made excuses and decided to reject the idea of a Savior. In my humble opinion it takes more faith to believe it is all a fairy tale then to believe its true. Oh, if I had that kind of faith, I could move mountains. :-)
 
Okay, sorry, my passion got the best of me this time :-) Still, I hope you heard my heart.
 
Looking forward to chatting some more (?) I pray you have a wonderful week. Blessings to you! Teresa
 
 
» left by Ken McCreless 2 years 265 days ago.
84 fans. Follow Ken McCreless on twitter!
Hi Sis.
 
I will backtrack and be sure I read all of your excellent articles on scripture.
Why did I start with part 3? Beats me!
 
Your brother, Ken, the human question mark.
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 264 days ago.
188 fans.
Hi bro, bro! I don't know why you started with part 3, but you best get caught up, I am working on part 4 today :-) I too am a big question mark. hugs, T
» left by Philip Yaffe from Brussels, Belgium 2 years 262 days ago.
8 September 2009
 
Dear Teresa,
 
Thanks for your reply to my question, but it seems to be a circumlocution. You make a persuasive argument about the "truth" of the Bible but I believe that equally persuasive arguments could be made in the opposite direction. Mormons accept the Bible but believe it is incomplete without the revelations of the Book of Mormon. Muslims accept the Bible but reject the divinity of Jesus. I don't know about other religions, but I imagine their scholars could adduce persuasive arguments about the "truth" of their holy books and the "untruth" of the Bible.
 
My question quite clearly was: Why doesn't God end the confusion by making it clear which of these competing texts is truly His? Or produce a new one and present it to the world in such a way that no one could possibly misunderstand? Your reply does not answer this question.
 
But let's let that go for a while, because I am even more concerned about something else you seem to have said.
 
From what I have understood, entry into heaven depends on believing in God, believing in Jesus (if one knows about him), and repenting ones sins before dying. Does this mean that if I am lucky enough to get to heaven, I could possibly find there Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Osama Bin-Ladin, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Al Capone, John Dillinger, Torquemada, pedophilic priests, etc., because they may have repented, whereas people such as Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Mark Twain, Golda Meier, Albert Einstein, Emily Dickinson, Bill Gates, Jodie Foster, etc., who may not repented, would be resident in hell?
 
This is truly an appalling thought. Please explain.
 
Best regards,
 
Phil
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 254 days ago.
188 fans.
Hi Philip, has it been this long? Sheesh! Sorry about that. I hope all is well on your end of the world.
 
I understand your frustration. But as I said, and anyone can research if they desire, the Bible is the only book that speaks of past, present, and future and all is in perfect harmony. God warns in the bible through the old testament prophets and even the right from the beginning that the adversary - Satan will seek to counterfiet all God does. There is a spiritual battle. As you mention, the Mormons accept the bible but do not accept it as complete. The first problem with this is that they do not truly accept the bible because in it, we are warned of angels coming to preach another gospel - Joseph smith claims an angel came to tell him the "truth". But I am not here to bash mormon's as individuals.Yet if you look into the Mormon doctrine, you don't have to look far to see that even their own books contradict one another and the "truth" has changed a lot since Joseph smith, who was a mystic, by the way, started the religion. There leadership has changed core teaching so many times. The biggest thing Joseph Smith and Brigham Young ignore is the book of Isaiah were God says that He is the only God that there are none before nor will they be after and that he is eternal and not a created being but the creator. They say God was just a man once like us. It appeases the flesh because then they can teach that we can all become God and have our own planet. Another biggy is who they teach that Jesus is - It's easlily researched that the mormon church does not believe in Biblical christianity and the Jesus they teach is not the Jesus of the Bible. Truth does not change. The Bible's teaching has never changed. Christianity has been taught since Genesis chapter one - it just wasn't called Christianity until the first century believers and followers of the Messiah - Jesus. As far as the other religions, again, they do not discuss the heart of man and the bottom line issue of sin. God has not made it confusing, he tells us exactly what we need to do. The devil and man has, by not liking what the Scriptures have to say, they simply come up with something us, but keep the things they do like about the bible. All other religions tell you to be good and do good deeds and we will be rewarded in heaven. But they do not/cannot tell you how good is good, at what point does our good outweigh our bad? How can I be sure I am not coming back a cow (no disrespect intended). The Bible leaves no room for wondering what the measure is. Because it is not about what we can do, it is about who we trust and follow and Jesus makes us good enough before his father because he paid the price of sin which is death (Spiritual) 
 
As a believer we will be rewarded for our good works, but this reward is the gifts and jobs we will receive once we are in heaven. Not to gain entrance, believers already have that.
 
Investigate all of the prophecies and historical data in the bible and you will find it is all true and 100% accurate. Even the book of Revelation is coming to pass and the book of Daniel and Ezekiel - we are living out the rest of the prophecies even today.
 
Okay, off to the other issue :-)
 
1st, luck has nothing to do with going to heaven :-) It is a conscience choice to respond to God's call on your heart and mind. It is an act of your will to submit yourself to God. Yes, you understand correctly that entry into heaven depends on believing and following God through Jesus Christ (if one has heard his name and who he is).
 
Remember what the book of Romans and 1 John tells us - actually Ephesians as well. When a person continually rejects the message of the Gospel and deny their conscience that brings guilt, and they continue in sin instead of repenting, God will give them what they want and he leaves them alone. There is a point when our conscience is severed and repentance is no longer possible. God is not in our thoughts, and wickedness (whether extreme wickedness or just the wickedness of carrying around unrepented "little sins") and living for self take over. A person can cross the line, that is made very clear in the bible. When you look at how the men you list lived their lives and how they died, it is obvious they did not have a repentant bone in their body. Remember how we are told, God is not mocked we will reap what we sow? If we sow to the flesh constantly we will reap corruption and death. I have no doubt that Al Capone, John Dillinger or Hilter and the others will be my roomate in heaven.
 
Remember how Corinthians and Revelation talk about the great white throne judgement? Well everyone who is not a believer and follower of Jesus will be judged according to their sin. There are varying degrees of punishment for the unsaved sinner. God is just and the consequence will fit the crime. So a person who lived life as a murderer is going to have a different degree of consequence than the one who lived his life as a liar and thief. The lake of fire burns forever and ever and for all eternity the Satan and his demons will burn in torment, but the souls of the unrepentant sinner (those who are/or will be in Hades) will be throne in and in Revelation we are told this is the second death. When I put all the Scriptures together, I and many like me conclude that after the torment which fits the unsaved soul according to their judgement, they will cease to exist. Others believe they will be in torment forever just like Satan and His angels. Which ever one of us is right is not the point. The point is there will be eternal separation from God - I cannot fathom that. Man was created for fellowship with God, and I desire that with everything that is within me.
 
So if people like you mentioned in the lower list, never repent of their sin, and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, the will not gain enterance to heaven. Again, we are all born sinners and are in need of reconciliation to God and so everyone - even people who do good things in this world sin against the Holy and Just God. If we could get to heaven by being good or doing good deeds without God's intervention, then there would have been no need for a Savior.
 
Only God and the individual know if they have crossed the line by making a decision to say they are a good person and they do not need a Savior.
 
God is just and holy - he set the standard, he provided himself a sacrifice for man to be reconciled. it is not his fault if we choose to reject his offer of salvation. - Think about this: If you walked into a hospital room and had compassion on the people in the room because they are dying - one needs a heart, one needs a liver, one needs a lung - and you being 100% healthy tell the doctor that you want to sacrifice yourself so that he can distribute your vital organs to those who need them so that they would live. The doctor complies, and then the person who needs the heart says, I don't need his heart, I am going to be fine I have faith my heart is going to turn around. So he rejects your heart and leaves your gift left in the dish intouched. But the other two accept your gift not taking chances on their own body. They leave the hospital gaining new strength everyday and they live. But the man who refused your heart dies. Is is your fault that he died because he rejecting your gift? Does he have a right to be angry at you because he trusted his own body rather than yours? Obviously this analogy doesn't give God and Jesus justice, but it gives a picture of what God has done, He sent his son because we are a lost and dying people and he died in our place so that we could be restored and made new and live forever in the presence of an Almighty and loving God. Love sent his only son to die a shameful death. But not just death. Jesus took on the weight of the sin of the world from Adam and Eve to our time, to those who come after us. He was completely separated from His Father for the first time in all eternity. God turned his back on His Son for the sake of His creation.  What a mystery! I am awed and humbled.
 
Mark Twain, Jody Foster, Gandhi and the rest you list had/have the same opportunity as you and I to accept or reject Christ. Only God knows their heart.
 
And finally, none of these people will be standing by our side when we face our maker - God will ask one question - what did you do with my son - he will not accept our reasoning by bringing up other people. Remember in the book of John how Jesus told John not to worry about Peter's relationship with Him, but to worry about his own.
 
I hope this helps :-) Blessings to you! Teresa
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 254 days ago.
188 fans.
One more thing. Closer to me than any on your list of "good" people are my own family - my son for starters. He is an awesome kid. Stays out of trouble and does great things. Truly someone you can count on and he is not walking with God. The same rules apply to him and pray for him daily to accept the truth. But even he admits for now that he knows there is a responsiblity that comes with receiving Christ as Savior. He did when he was a little guy, but he too has to conclude in his own heart whom he will follow. He knows the truth, but is supressing it for now. I pray he never crosses that line, but surrenders. Just thought you should know, this is intensly personal. But truth is truth and God is God. Bye for now :-)
» left by Philip Yaffe 2 years 251 days ago.
12 fans.
19 September 2009
 
Dear Teresa,
 
Once again, thanks for the tremendous labor you obviously put into your response. Actually, I am beginning to feel guilty about this because I think our correspondences increasingly resemble the blind leading the blind. Nevertheless, let's continue awhile to see where it still might take us.
 
I find your comments about the ultimate fate of the good and the bad people of this world far from reassuring. I had never before heard that, "There is a point when our conscience is severed and repentance is no longer possible." This seems to be at odds with something you said some time ago that, "As long as we have breath we have an opportunity to repent and turn to God, but once we breathe our last breath, we have sealed our fate." Can both of these be correct? You also say, "When you look at how the men you list (Hitler, Stalin, etc.) lived their lives and how they died, it is obvious they did not have a repentant bone in their body." But that's a human judgment. We cannot know whether they might have repented in their last hours and how God might have received such repentance. Thus, the possibility that monsters such Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, etc. might have been received in heaven remains open, while good people such as Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Mark Twain, Golda Meier, Albert Einstein, etc. were excluded.
 
The idea of a repentant Hitler or Stalin in heaven and a non-repentant Gandhi or Dali Lama in hell is still an appalling thought. To my mind, this simply does not jibe with any conceivable notion that "God is love".
 
You make some interesting comments about the authenticity of the Bible compared to the scriptures of other religions. I will not argue the point, because the point is, there simply shouldn't be argument about this at all. You say that "God has not made it confusing," but the fact that we are even discussing what is or is not His true word demonstrates confusion. In fact, for centuries people have been fighting and dying over the issue, and still are. The god I have faith in would be a considerably better communicator. If He had a plan for mankind, He would make certain that everyone knew about it, surely and without doubt. Since this is clearly not case, I must conclude that there is no plan and that all the holy books of all the world's religions, the Bible included, are suspect. This in no way implies that I do not like what the Scriptures say, but that I have no reason to believe that one set of Scriptures has validity over any other.
 
At a human level, I understand and share your pain with regard to your son because I know that you truly believe what you are saying, but given the comments above, I believe that you have nothing to worry about. I know that this probably won't make you feel any better; however, casting doubt on your concern is all I have to offer. I hope you will accept this attempt at consolation in the spirit of friendship and good will with which it is intended.
 
Best regards,
 
Phil
» left by Anonymous 2 years 251 days ago.
Hi Phil, you caught me on line :-)
 
No need to feel guilty, God says his word never returns void and it will accomplish the task that he sets forth. So even if our conversation for now seems unfruitful, I already know it has been and will continue to be. Certainly I pray it leads to your surrender to Jesus Christ, (I cannot lie here), but if not, as I said, we have become friends and an example and hopefully hope for others who happen across our conversation that it is possible to discuss issues of confusion, or disagreements in a peaceful and respectful manner. And who knows, maybe others will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ in the process :-) I am willing to keep going as long as you are willing, so until you say - discussion over, I have made my decision, I'm here.
 
Regarding my "as long as there is breath" and "there is a point when the conscience is severed". They are both biblically true. It goes back to the individual and what they do with their conscience and how the wrestle with God daily. Some people will wrestle til their death bed, but unfortunately never take the step of faith to even give God a chance to reveal himself to them. Others wrestle with God most of their life, but when they feel "their time is coming" they take that initial step of faith toward God saying, "I don't know everything, I don't believe or understand everything, but I do know you have been on my mind and I do know I haved sinned and need your forgiveness". Then in this initial step of faith, they begin a relationship with God that grows and blossoms into deeper understanding of God's word. On the other hand, you have people who early on in their life make a conscious decision to say God does not exist, I have no need for forgiveness of the things I did wrong, there is no heaven or hell, so it doesn't matter. This is when their conscience is severed. Only God knows who has crossed that line. You are right that I make an assumption that Hilter etc did not repent in their final moments, but I have good biblical reason to feel that way. But for arguments sake, if the hardness of their years of evil behavior and calousness toward God could break and bring them to utter humility and repentance in their last few moments of life, especially suicide, then the blood of Jesus covers their sin and they would go to heaven. But consider for a moment, the average person - sinner like you and me. You are still wrestling with the truth of Jesus Christ and the need for salvation after how many years? I wrestled with this truth until I was 19 - until I finally took that little step of faith to accept Jesus as my Savior. What are the odds of a practioner of pure wickedness repenting. And even so, its not them you have to worry about, and as far as I am concerned, I would never turn away from God and go to hell for my sin, just because I am mad that God would forgive Hilter. Why in the world would I ever let a man like Hilter keep me from heaven. No way Jose :-)
 
I still don't see it as God confusing man, I see it as man confusing man by not wanting to believe he/she is a sinner.
 
I am grateful that you hear and feel my heart in my responses to you and I appreciate your encouragement regarding my son. I know you mean it in sincerity. And yet, I know my son is a sinner too, I've seen the evidence :-).
 
Phil, we as humans will never be able to fully comprehend the mind of God - if we could, he would cease to be God. As I say everytime, and will continue to say -- if there is no God, and Jesus died a vain death, what do you do with your guilt and shame over sin. How do even account for the fact that you (we as people) try to even account for God? Where do you suppose that notion ever came from. We are a spiritual being, there is no denying this, if we just came from Monkey's or Fish, or some cosmic boom, there would be no thought toward spiritual things. But indeed there are spiritual things that happen all around us.
 
The very fact that we are having this discussion proves that we are people who seek to know the things of God. He built it into us when he created us.
 
Don't you remember reading in the book of John how Jesus was teaching that Satan is the father of lies and how he has been trying to thwart the word of God since the very beginning? The bible tells us about every false doctrine, false spirits and tells us how to judge them wether they are of God or not. As I said, the bible cannot be proven wrong - many who have set out to try, even the atheist of atheists, come away believers because the evidence is overwhelming. Every varying religion came from the garden. After genesis chapter 11 when God split the continents and scattered the people, each groups of people took away a piece of the truth and then added to it. It's no coincidence every culture has a flood story, a creation theory, and a plan for man to get back to God. But God made one truth and revealed the plan of reconciliation in Genesis chapter one - the entire account and message carries without contradiction and with exactness through the very last chapter of Revelation 99 . I ask this one thing dear friend, are you willing to gamble with your soul? If we wait until we understand everything about God, we will die with an uncleansed soul and will bear the consequence and when we face our maker, he will open the books and show us everytime the truth was made known to us, we will not be able to say we didn't know. One baby step of faith, opens the door for the Holy Spirit to come in and open our spiritual eyes. God gives everyone a measure of faith that it takes to say, I am a sinner and I need a Savior. Reject it, and we have only ourselves to blame.
 
Thanks again. And truly, and finally I am actually writing part 4. It's partially complete. :-) 
 
Blessings to you my friend! Teresa
» left by Philip Yaffe 2 years 249 days ago.
12 fans.
21 September 2009
 
Dear Teresa,
 
Just a quick clarification about your latest reply. I would not be mad at God to learn that He had forgiven Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, etc. and had given them a place in heaven. But I would be furious to learn that He had not forgiven Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Mark Twain, Golda Meier, Albert Einstein, etc. and sent them to hell. I could not imagine a greater act of evil and wickeness.
 
Regards,
 
Phil
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 248 days ago.
188 fans.
Hi Phill,
 
That's good to hear :-) Sorry to have presummed so, it kind of came across that way, but I didn't think too much of it because I know you are trying to sort things out in your mind. :-)
 
Be assured, God is fair and just. If Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Mark Twain and the rest repented of their sin and acknowledged their need for a Savior, they were forgiven and are seated in heaven with Jesus at this very moment waiting for the rest of us to join them. Blessings to you. Teresa
» left by Philip Yaffe 2 years 248 days ago.
12 fans.
22 September 2009
 
Dear Teresa,
 
Thanks for the comforting words, but they bring no comfort. Just as you seem convinced that Hitler, Stalin, etc. probably didn't repent and accept Jesus, I am equally convinced that Gandhi, the Dali Lama, Golda Meir, etc. didn't either. Thus, while Hitler and Stalin may have been justly consigned to hell, the idea that Gandhi and Golda Meir may be sharing their fate seems to me the most iniquitous injustice imaginable. If this is the message of the Gospel, I find it anything but "good news".
 
Regards,
 
Phil
» left by Teresa Ortiz 2 years 248 days ago.
188 fans.
Good Morning Phil,
 
The Message of the Gospel is very clear and as we have been discussing, we don't get to heaven by good works, this is the most level of of fairness because everyone is allowed into heaven by the same exact measure. Sin is sin, and sin cannot be in the presence of a Holy God. Judgement however, is appointed to the the idividual according to their deeds, therefore Hilter's fate and Gandhi's fate though both would be separated from God, will have a different degree of hell as the Bible teaches. What we have to remember is God's justice is based on one measure and one measure alone. You cannot get any fairer than that. Good never outweigh's bad. There is only one unforgiveable sin and that is the rejection of God gift of reconciliation. And it is fair because God records how many times the truth was revealed to a person and how many times they rejected it and on judgement day they will know and have no defense. It also records every deed and ever word said and it will show just how many sinful works and words were said and done. It still boils down to one thing. Neither Hilter nor Gandhi will be by your side (my side) on judgement day. Each of us have to answer to God for ourselves. Someone once asked me this question: "Teresa, would you drink a glass of water that was filled with mudd and fecies. Absolutely not, I said. Then he asked me if I would drink a glass of Clear, Ice cold refreshing water, that only had a dropper full of fecies in it. Absolutely not I said. He asked me why not, its only a little and the water still looks good to drink. I said because whether a little or a lot it is still poop" He said, so if demand 100% fecies free water, why is it that you think God should accept "good people" who still have uncleansed sin in their life? He went on to tell me that if I really wanted God's justice then I shouldn't be angry at the idea of me going to hell for unrepentant sin and thinking that God is not fair. It was then that I decided I much rather have God's grace. God's standard is perfection, I am far from that, but in Christ I am perfected and made new before God and all my sinful words and deeds are wiped out - covered and cleansed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. That to me is good news.  Are you saying you prefer your idea of justice?
 
Many blessings to you!  Your friend, Teresa
 
 
» left by Anonymous 1 year 133 days ago.
Teresa,
 
It's amazing how God works. I was doing some research on God's perfect and permissive will and I stumbled upon your email conversation with PHIL. At first I was quite disturbed; however after
 
reading the last e-mail I must say that I admired your humbleness. Even if he never changed his views or his way of thinking I will say that it was evident to me that you allowed GOD to use you as a vessel by displaying such patience and willingness to assistance him with getting clarity for his questions and concerns. May God continue to use you in a might way

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